Ireland's greatest politian

walrusgumble · 20-04-2006 6:20pm #1

so wo do you think was ireland's greatest politician? this forum has already spoken of de valera and collins. as we are now in the 21st century, we should look back on other people of the past and present who have contributed todays society.

One may say it is Daniel O'Connell, for his work in granting the voting and respresentative rights for Catholics and his efforts with the poor of Ireland.

Or maybe Charles S Parnell, the "Uncrowned King of Ireland". this man fought for the land league and made home rule and more important issue in Westminister. Furthermore he revolutionised who politics was run. the Irish Parliamentary Party were the first paid Representatives who vowed to unite as a single unit when voting, much like the parties ethos of today.

maybe someone may say Arthur Griffith. the founder of Sinn Fein, a loyal nationalist who believed that it would be more efficient to fight the might of the Empire by Constitutional means. The head delegate at the treaty, possibly one of the most under rated and under estimated founding fathers of this state.

What about the more modern politicians. Sean Lemass was responsible for the establishment of the Irish Economy that we enjoy to day. although he had previously been a member of fianna fail's programme of self sufficency, he, along with the most influentail aide TK Whittaker, help transform Ireland from an poor backward rural economy to a state that we would not have experienced today.

maybe Dr Noel Browne for his attempt to establish the Mother- Child Scheme. Or Jack Lynch or Mary Robinson for her role in the Macgee Case and her humintarian role whilst President for helping to draw the worlds attention to the third world.

What does the forum really think of Charles J Haughey?. As a legisature he is responsible for the Succession Act, Artist Tax Exemptions and his role in the foundation for the Celtic Economy(yes he was)

so what is your opinion?

JohnnySideburns · 08-05-2006 3:19pm

In the modern era, I would say Charlie McCreevey mainly due to the fact he was one of the few politicians who put what was morally right in front of his own political ambitions. In 1982, after the mass chickening out by his Fianna Fail colleagues to Dessie O'Malley's leadership challenge to Haughey, McCreevy did a brave thing by single handedly laying a motion of no-confidence in Charlie Haughey's leadership. This was defeated and cost McCreevey dear in that he was left on the backbenches until Albert Reynolds took reign in 1991/1992. A huge sacrifice for something that was morally right (getting rid of the virus that was Haughey). He also gave us SSIA's!!!!!!!!

Over the entire course of Irish history, I would say the popular choice Michael Collins. To sign a stepping stone Treaty that he described as his own death warrant in an effort to save thousands of innocent lives was an admirable thing and proves he only cared about Ireland and not his position in it (unlike that "Cut through rivers of blood" glory hunting American b*stard, you know who I'm talking about!!!!)

JohnnySideburns · 08-05-2006 3:28pm

walrusgumble wrote:

What does the forum really think of Charles J Haughey?. As a legisature he is responsible for the Succession Act, Artist Tax Exemptions and his role in the foundation for the Celtic Economy(yes he was)

In relation to your "yes he was" quote, here is something I wrote on another thread that might open your eyes on Haughey's turning around of the economy.

Before Garret Fitzgerald resigned, he implemented a regime of "squeezing Haughey by the balls" [to do what was necessary to turn the economy around] on seeing that he was in a minority Government position after the 1987 election and could be removed from power by the opposition, if they so wished. While this point is debatable, the fact that Fianna Fail went into the 1987 election vigourously campaigning against health budget cuts and then mysteriously turning around on this on getting into power, does contribute to this argument. If Fitzgerald (and Dukes), hadn't done this, it's arguably quite likely that Haughey wouldn't have turned the economy around.

spanner · 13-05-2006 5:42am

I know he has not been a poliitian in the Republic but I think John Hume is the greatest politican in Ireland and definately in Northern Ireland. He has tiredlessly worked for equal rights, peace and social justice.
A great man. I think he is our Martin Luther King

Dirk Gently · 13-05-2006 5:52am

For impact and success I would have to say Mick Collins,
But from a political point of view and what they stood for even though not making a lasting impression on the policies of the country it would be James Connolly and Jim Larkin.
John Hume is another good example as was mentioned. Very under rated by people in what he achieved.

PHB · 13-05-2006 2:45pm

Parnell by a country mile.

Herbert Henry Asquith, described him as one of the three or four greatest men of the nineteenth century
Lord Haldane described him as the strongest man the British House of Commons had seen in 150 years.

The man was a force of nature

nollaig · 15-05-2006 8:19am

Leamass

Hogmeister B · 15-05-2006 9:51pm

nollaig wrote:

Leamass

Whoah, don't try too hard to convince us...

ateam · 15-05-2006 9:52pm

PHB wrote:

Parnell by a country mile.

Herbert Henry Asquith, described him as one of the three or four greatest men of the nineteenth century
Lord Haldane described him as the strongest man the British House of Commons had seen in 150 years.

The man was a force of nature

He did not achieve his main goal - home rule for Ireland and the land issue was not completely sorted out in his life time, so I would dispute his eminence.

I would say Bertie Ahern.

spanner · 16-05-2006 6:44am

I think parnell was a great politican, in the sense he was very cunning and devious. He was well able to manipulate situations to his own end. However he really did not achieve anything tangable. the Land struggle was really won by Micheal Davitt.

Yes Micheal Collins did achieve great things but I do think some of it is quite overblown. He effectively got us home rule, which John Redmond had before the out break of war.

I belive one of the greatest bits of diplomatically conducted by an Irish politican for Ireland was Kevin O'Higgins in brokering the statue of westminister which in fact voided the treaty altogether.

I to belive Kevin O'Higgins was the greatest Irish politican, he sailed ireland through one of the most violent parts of its history and provided a steady hand fought out a stable democracy for ireland. If you look at the other countries created around the same time as ireland none were as sucessful as us

ateam · 17-05-2006 1:14pm

spanner wrote:

I think parnell was a great politican, in the sense he was very cunning and devious. He was well able to manipulate situations to his own end. However he really did not achieve anything tangable. the Land struggle was really won by Micheal Davitt.

Yes Micheal Collins did achieve great things but I do think some of it is quite overblown. He effectively got us home rule, which John Redmond had before the out break of war.

I belive one of the greatest bits of diplomatically conducted by an Irish politican for Ireland was Kevin O'Higgins in brokering the statue of westminister which in fact voided the treaty altogether.

I to belive Kevin O'Higgins was the greatest Irish politican, he sailed ireland through one of the most violent parts of its history and provided a steady hand fought out a stable democracy for ireland. If you look at the other countries created around the same time as ireland none were as sucessful as us

What are you basing this on?? The Statue of Westminster came in 1931, O'Higgins died in 1927.

Secondly, i'm not sure the word "sailed" can be used with regard to O'Higgins, he was murdered on the steps of his house in 1927.

Drummerboy2 · 17-05-2006 1:25pm

Noel Browne – took on the church and got shafted for his troubles. His Mother & Child scheme was a forerunner to social welfare. Totally unselfish is his actions.

nollaig · 17-05-2006 3:26pm

Noel Browne – took on the church and got shafted for his troubles. His Mother & Child scheme was a forerunner to social welfare. Totally unselfish is his actions.

But he achieved shag all really.

funktastic · 17-05-2006 3:38pm

Noel Browne- I wouldn't agree with. He did turn around a lot of the health system, some of which was in place by the outgoing Fianna Fail government by '48, but he was also undeniably stubborn, childish and, from his stature in 1951 having left Clann na Poblachta, should have gone much further in politics rather than rambling from party to party for the rest of his career. Definitely an idealist, who couldn't work with bureaucracy, which doesn't really make a great politician. He's just a somewhat romantic figure for standing up to the Church with the Mother and Child crisis, but, when people read deeper, it would have been implemented if Browne was less stubborn John Horgan's biography of him 'Passionate Outisder' is good, and his own vitriolic memoirs, 'Against the Tide' are very readable and at times quite funny. His whole 'anti-Mary Robinson' tirade at the end of his career when he was, more or less rightly snubbed, as a Labour party candidate for the presidency was indicative of his childishness. He constantly lambasted her to the end of her presidency out of sheer spite.

I would go along with Lemass- for having the balls to reverse his old, and FF's, policies on the economy and open up to the wider world. Although not a politician (a civil servant) was voted 'Irishman of the 20th Century' by RTE. When talking about Lemass' achievements, it is impossible not to talk about him- from economic reform to setting up the meeting with O'Neill in 1965.

Parts of many politicans careers made a huge impact, for example Frank Aiken's internationalist stance and standing up to the US up to 1961 in the UN gave Ireland a greater role, but he was involved in an alleged atrocity in the north during the civil war.

Ahern, will have a strong reputation in years to come. The times of prosperity are always remembered for who was in charge at the time, not necessarily for who laid the foundations. And he benefitted much more from his personable approach than the like of FitzGerald, who appeared somewhat arrogant and aloof when with the public.

Others- probably Lynch-although he was somewhat weak early on, especially over the north. MacBride- his change from the IRA to constitutional politics and Clann na Poblachta brought in a coalition government which up until then was unseen in Irish politics but comon elsewhere in the world. Although intransigent on some issues- such as partition, he was awaded the Nobel peace prize, and gave Ireland a more Europena outlook as min for Ex affairs.

De Valera, despite all the bad points, had a some positives, which I've mentioned on the 'What Has Dev Ever Done For Us?' thread. The same could be said for Haughey in some respects- tax exemption for artists, bus passes for oap's, ban on smoking, probably the best minister for justice the country has had, the revitalisation of the Docklands/Temple bar deal. But of course he had many negatives, but at least he has a bit of personality! Not like many other 20th centuy Irish politicians.(I know I've neglected Parnell, Butt et al in the 19th.)

spanner · 21-05-2006 5:57am

ateam wrote:

What are you basing this on?? The Statue of Westminster came in 1931, O'Higgins died in 1927.

Secondly, i'm not sure the word "sailed" can be used with regard to O'Higgins, he was murdered on the steps of his house in 1927.

Granted it came in after his death but he was pivotal in the Negogations of the statue of westminister.

Also Granted he only witnessed the first 5 years of the free state but in this time he set up an garda siochanna, dealt (quite vicously) with the Subversives to the state, an army Mutiny and most importantly he ensure the transistion to free state law and order

the greatest Accomplishment new states and governments that are born out of violence can do is survive. As we see in Iraqi this is not easy to do it is actually the greatest Challenge they will face.

I belive this is what kevin O'Higgins did and for that he deserves credit

Hermione* · 22-05-2006 3:51pm

spanner wrote:

Granted it came in after his death but he was pivotal in the Negogations of the statue of westminister.

Also Granted he only witnessed the first 5 years of the free state but in this time he set up an garda siochanna, dealt (quite vicously) with the Subversives to the state, an army Mutiny and most importantly he ensure the transistion to free state law and order

the greatest Accomplishment new states and governments that are born out of violence can do is survive. As we see in Iraqi this is not easy to do it is actually the greatest Challenge they will face.

I belive this is what kevin O'Higgins did and for that he deserves credit

You could be thinking of the 1926 Balfour Declaration. Also the achievements you mention would be shared amongst the government. The civil war and the mutiny would have been the domain of Richard Mulcahy as Minister for Defence.

Collins would get it on potential. He could have been truly brilliant, as Lee says, the only civil war casualty with the ability to change history.

Lemass for his courage to institute enormous changes in the priorities of the government. Brown for his courage in fighting the system; he may not have achieved much but at least he tried.

Also Mary Robinson, she achieved so much despite the odds at a time when women were still predominantly outside public life.

nollaig · 22-05-2006 4:14pm

Also Mary Robinson, she achieved so much despite the odds at a time when women were still predominantly outside public life.

What did she achieve?

ateam · 24-05-2006 2:39pm

Unfortunately she became the first female president of Ireland, so that's her achievement (and that's it).

funktastic · 24-05-2006 3:51pm

She did a lot in her career as a barrister in the liberalisation of contraception in Ireland.
She played a much more active and internationalist role in the presidency than the likes of the old fianna Fail guard who were left out to pasture in the Phoenix Park.

ateam · 24-05-2006 4:11pm

funktastic wrote:

She did a lot in her career as a barrister in the liberalisation of contraception in Ireland.
She played a much more active and internationalist role in the presidency than the likes of the old fianna Fail guard who were left out to pasture in the Phoenix Park.

She stuck her nose in where it wasn't wanted...Irish presidents are supposed to be above politics and represent the country abroad in a positive manner.

Hermione* · 25-05-2006 3:42pm

ateam wrote:

She stuck her nose in where it wasn't wanted...Irish presidents are supposed to be above politics and represent the country abroad in a positive manner.

That's not actually true, the President is supposed to ensure the constitutionality of all legislation passed by the Oireachtas, and that citizens's rights are not eroded by government legislation. Mary Robinson was also the first President to really interpret the role in terms of the country's profile abroad.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 25-05-2006 3:48pm

ateam wrote:

I would say Bertie Ahern.

You are taking the piss, aren't you...? Bertie has neither the guts nor the imagination to come even close to some of the other names mentioned on this thread!

Rocker · 25-05-2006 10:35pm

Hermione* wrote:

You could be thinking of the 1926 Balfour Declaration. Also the achievements you mention would be shared amongst the government. The civil war and the mutiny would have been the domain of Richard Mulcahy as Minister for Defence.

Collins would get it on potential. He could have been truly brilliant, as Lee says, the only civil war casualty with the ability to change history.

Lemass for his courage to institute enormous changes in the priorities of the government. Brown for his courage in fighting the system; he may not have achieved much but at least he tried.

Also Mary Robinson, she achieved so much despite the odds at a time when women were still predominantly outside public life.

The Statue of Westminster was just the Balfour Declaration made into law. All the work was done by O'Higgins in 26. It just took the British government 4 years to make it a law. Also O'Higgins has to take all credit for the ending of the Army Mutiny. Mulcahny failed to take the action that was necessary to destroy because it was against old friends. I have a lot of respect for Mulcahny, but on this I think he failed in this. Also Cosgrave was sick at the time so it was all up to O'Higgins. If O’Higgins had hesitated who knows what would have happened.

Back to the original question. As a politician I would to stay Parnell. His handling of Gladstone's Second Land act was brilliant and he did change the whole way political parties work

The Politician who did most for Ireland: Collins would come top with O'Higgins in second place and W.T. Cosgrave in third. They were the men who built the state and that isn't an easy thing to do. In more recent times I have a lot of respect for Lemass and Liam Cosgrave.

guinnessdrinker · 26-05-2006 1:39pm

Maybe not a popular choice among some but I think Gerry Adams is a great politician. If only for the simple fact that there would be no peace in the north of Ireland without him. Himself and John Hulme started peace talks way back in 1988 I think it was! Hulme/Adams initiative I think it was called.

Also I know Charles Haughey is not too well liked but I also admired him in that he could make decisions like a leader should unlike Bertie, whenever he has to make a decision bumbles and mumbles and after all that you still dont know what his decisoin was.

ateam · 29-05-2006 10:07am

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

You are taking the piss, aren't you...? Bertie has neither the guts nor the imagination to come even close to some of the other names mentioned on this thread!

Maybe if you take away your current political loyalties and prejudiceness, you will see that Bertie Ahern has done great things for this country such as ending unemployment and emigration, improving standards of living dramatically, increasing the number of people going to third level education, the introduction of the smoking ban etc etc. Also, Bertie Ahern was instrumental in the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 and continues to work tirelessly on Northern matters.

meditraitor · 29-05-2006 10:14am

Daniel O'Connell

Hermione* · 31-05-2006 7:49pm

Rocker wrote:

The Statue of Westminster was just the Balfour Declaration made into law. All the work was done by O'Higgins in 26. It just took the British government 4 years to make it a law. Also O'Higgins has to take all credit for the ending of the Army Mutiny. Mulcahny failed to take the action that was necessary to destroy because it was against old friends. I have a lot of respect for Mulcahny, but on this I think he failed in this. Also Cosgrave was sick at the time so it was all up to O'Higgins. If O’Higgins had hesitated who knows what would have happened.

The Balfour Declaration granted equality between the members of the Commonwealth, the Statute of Westminster gave the dominions the right to rescind legislation passed on their behalf by the Imperial Parliament.

Given that O'Higgins once said 'If I woke up in the morning to find myself popular, I should question my actions', his commitment to democracy is slightly questionable which would surely exclude from consideration for Ireland's greatest politician. O'Higgins was very able when it came to making hard decisions, but there's a strain of authoritarianism running through his actions and speeches which is worrying.

I'd agree with you on Parnell though, he created what is recognised as the first modern political party in Britain.

As for Ahern and Haughey, they'd know very little about hard decisions. Or decisions at all, come to think of it.

ateam · 31-05-2006 10:21pm

I really don't understand how people could not place Bertie Ahern in at least their top 5 Irish politicians. This country has undergone immeasurable change during his priemership and credit must be given where it's due. I suspect that those who criticise Bertie Ahern and Fianna Fail are the exact same people availing of the FF initative, SSIA.

PS. If some people view Kevin O'Higgins as the best Irish politician, they really must examine their priorities.

Rocker · 03-06-2006 7:30pm

Hermione* wrote:

The Balfour Declaration granted equality between the members of the Commonwealth, the Statute of Westminster gave the dominions the right to rescind legislation passed on their behalf by the Imperial Parliament.

Being able to rescind legislation is part of the whole equality thing. They couldn't be equal if Westminster could pass legislation of the Dominicans.

Given that O'Higgins once said 'If I woke up in the morning to find myself popular, I should question my actions', his commitment to democracy is slightly questionable which would surely exclude from consideration for Ireland's greatest politician. O'Higgins was very able when it came to making hard decisions, but there's a strain of authoritarianism running through his actions and speeches which is worrying.

He was being ironic about the fact that he was always forced to make tough decision that weren't always popular. O'Higgins was a strong supporter of democracy and all his actions show that.

Anto McC · 04-06-2006 11:20am

Benjamin Disraeli,I know he wasnt an Irish politician but he was a decent aul skin

I'd say Daniel O'Connell!!

spanner · 04-06-2006 11:08pm

Rocker wrote:

Being able to rescind legislation is part of the whole equality thing. They couldn't be equal if Westminster could pass legislation of the Dominicans.

He was being ironic about the fact that he was always forced to make tough decision that weren't always popular. O'Higgins was a strong supporter of democracy and all his actions show that

I totally agree with what you said in this thread. He signed the death warrant for his best man, Rory O'Connor. I would not think he is the best politican that ireland has had because he did not live long enough. But he is the type of politican that we could do with today, a politican who will make the right decisions even if they are unpopular

spanner · 04-06-2006 11:31pm

guinnessdrinker wrote:

Maybe not a popular choice among some but I think Gerry Adams is a great politician. If only for the simple fact that there would be no peace in the north of Ireland without him. Himself and John Hulme started peace talks way back in 1988 I think it was! Hulme/Adams initiative I think it was called.

I do admire Gerry Adams as a person and as a politican. He is a true socialist unlike some of our current fat cat socialists. He came to my Home town recently. He was really nice, he visited the local activity centre and the GAA club, played a bit of hurling with the lads. He was really personable and made time to speak to everyone. He came to visit and there is not even an election been called yet. Alot different to the current leader who grace you with their presence in a whistle stop tour of the country during elections.

Rocker · 05-06-2006 12:35am

spanner wrote:

I totally agree with what you said in this thread. He signed the death warrant for his best man, Rory O'Connor. I would not think he is the best politican that ireland has had because he did not live long enough. But he is the type of politican that we could do with today, a politican who will make the right decisions even if they are unpopular

Two points on this. First he was the second last person in the cabinet to agree to this. It wasn't his idea and he very reluctantly agreed to it in the end. It was only when he was convinced by Cosgrave and Mulcahny that it was vital for the survival of Irish democracy, which it may well have been because the anti-treaty IRA had begun a tactic of executing pro-treaty TDs, that he agreed to it. He also broke down in the Dail when he was defending it. He felt he had to defend it because it fell within his ministries jurisdiction and hence was his responsibility. He was involved in Irish politics for about eight years, which although it isn't that long a time, it's not that short either and it is a good few years more then people like Collins.

pork99 · 06-06-2006 10:08am

JohnnySideburns wrote:

(unlike that "Cut through rivers of blood" glory hunting American b*stard, you know who I'm talking about!!!!)

Yes they shot the wrong guy in 1922

Hermione* · 06-06-2006 11:37am

Rocker wrote:

He was being ironic about the fact that he was always forced to make tough decision that weren't always popular. O'Higgins was a strong supporter of democracy and all his actions show that.

O'Higgins didn't do irony. He had great potential, but this is a man who had a long-standing affair while portraying himself as a devout Catholic. I'm not saying he was bad, but nowhere near great.

ateam wrote:

Maybe if you take away your current political loyalties and prejudiceness, you will see that Bertie Ahern has done great things for this country such as ending unemployment and emigration, improving standards of living dramatically, increasing the number of people going to third level education, the introduction of the smoking ban etc etc. Also, Bertie Ahern was instrumental in the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 and continues to work tirelessly on Northern matters.

Please don't get me started on Bertie Ahern. Please. The man has a pathological fear of decisions.

Rocker · 07-06-2006 4:26pm

Hermione* wrote:

O'Higgins didn't do irony. He had great potential, but this is a man who had a long-standing affair while portraying himself as a devout Catholic. I'm not saying he was bad, but nowhere near great.

Of course he did irony. Lines like that were a major part of O'Higgins brilliance. Also I wouldn't hold anything against him if he did have an affair, which is very debateable. I don't care what politicians do in their spare time.

nollaig · 08-06-2006 3:38pm

He had great potential, but this is a man who had a long-standing affair while portraying himself as a devout Catholic

Really? Never heard this. With who? Is like fact or rumour?

spanner · 12-06-2006 6:33pm

Rocker wrote:

Of course he did irony. Lines like that were a major part of O'Higgins brilliance. Also I wouldn't hold anything against him if he did have an affair, which is very debateable. I don't care what politicians do in their spare time.

one of the best quotes he said of the early 20s that really encapsulated the mood of the time was" we tried to form a governement with mad men screaming in the key hole"

I think his personal comments really do not relate to his political abilities

spanner · 12-06-2006 6:35pm

nollaig wrote:

Really? Never heard this. With who? Is like fact or rumour?

Its true, documentary on RTE recently with love letters and his family admitting it

spanner · 12-06-2006 6:41pm

Rocker wrote:

He felt he had to defend it because it fell within his ministries jurisdiction and hence was his responsibility. He was involved in Irish politics for about eight years, which although it isn't that long a time, it's not that short either and it is a good few years more then people like Collins.

I think what you are saying proves the point that he felt a deep sense of duty and when it came down to it he would do what was his duty. Also he established a new police force which was very different from the old model at a time that was very tumultus in Ireland.

racso1975 · 12-06-2006 6:56pm

i would say Oscar Traynor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Traynor only shadow on career is being succeeded by Haughey but he cant help that

delta_bravo · 15-06-2006 9:01am

Hogmeister B wrote:

Whoah, don't try too hard to convince us...

this man doesnt need convincing, lemass is the greatest irish politician without doubt

Prufrock · 20-06-2006 6:05pm

spanner wrote:

I think parnell was a great politican, in the sense he was very cunning and devious. He was well able to manipulate situations to his own end. However he really did not achieve anything tangable.

Nothing tangable? Right. Well he did completely reform the structure of the Home Rule League making it a serious entity in politics compaired to the joke it was beforehand. This gave Irish people a voice in Westminster and gave politicians the platform they needed for future success.

It was also because of him that the first Home Rule bill was introduced.

Mordecai · 16-07-2006 11:55am

When Dev was great, he was great - pursuit of sovereignty and independance - but the negatives - Civil War and economics and social conservatism - outweigh his good deeds in my eyes, so I wouldn't support him.
I am a big supporter of Kevin O'Higgins - Balfour Declaration, stability of the state - ending the Civil War, justice system, gardaí - and one particular thing, he personally opposed censorship. Why did he never achieve martyr status? His death seems to have all the necessary ingredients.... Still, it wouldn't be fair to name him as our greatest politician.
That title must go to.......no-one. As a nation, we are most adept at producing flawed politicians who, while doing great things, always tarnish themselves by some other, often partisan things, which split the audience:
witness Haughey, Dev, Parnell, O'Connell, FitzGerald, all the 1916 heads, any republican since 1922 (that may be a controversial stance). Even Good Sir Jack (Lynch)'s reputation has been tinged by the arms crisis.
Flawed characters have been the best characters since Attic drama, so our history can at least always remain interesting.

The Long Fellow · 31-07-2006 2:15pm

Well certainly Henry Grattan, Grattan's parliament was an important step forward at the time.

O'Connell's work for emancipation was incredible and was the first time anyne had been able to harness the power of the masses of peasant's and use it for political change.
He was absoloutely against violence for the cause, but was brilliant at using such ambivilent language, so that te government got the impression that if it were necessary he might be changed, also he had the government believing (perhaps rightly) that he was the only thing standing in the way of anarchy.
The records of how disciplined the masses were during elections and the lack of drunkeness goes someway to back this up.

one thing that sometimes gets forgotten was that he was a staunch supporter of the crown, and was of the opinion that repeal of the union would infact strengthen relations.

I think the differences that eventually revealed themselves between him and the young irelanders was important.

But certainly he'd be high up my list!

Jackie laughlin · 11-08-2006 12:26am

I find this a very strange thread. The choices reflect the politics of the participants and crucially their attitude to political violence. Quite a number of the nominees are reformed killers whose main claim to greatness is that they stopped killing.

I'm trying to think back but apart from the odd biography none of the nominees seems to have left anything resembling theory or vision. On that basis Edmund Burke is a notable omission.

Not a single socialist is mentioned. Any leader of the Labour Party in the 20th century is worth a mention as standing for civilised values and constitutionalism through times dominated by violence, Rome, the Irish bourgeoisie, isolationism, US domination and nowadays neo-liberalism.

Jackie laughlin · 11-08-2006 2:21pm

Wasn't someone on about Arthur Griffith and republicanism? He was a royalist!

The Long Fellow · 16-08-2006 8:48am

O'Connoll was completely and utterly opposed to violence and bloodshed for the cause (except self defence, which never occurred during his period of influence) at time he used this on the government while not directly stating it, but implying that he was the only reason that revolt was suppressed, (well him & the catholic priests who were against a reckless revolt where wining was not even a possibility).

walrusgumble · 25-10-2006 6:43pm

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Wasn't someone on about Arthur Griffith and republicanism? He was a royalist!

Griffith was misunderstood. if ye can check out his articles in his newspapers. completly against the way the crown treated ireland, on many occassions his lanuage drew the attention of dublin castle and his experience during the boer war definitly changed whatever views he had on britain.. how could ya be loyal to the crown when ya propose boycotting taxes etc to the english piggie bank? (being lazy, self sufficency)

griffith relied on historical precedent when he came up with ideas, ye all know how he was heavily on the hugarian - austrian movement, so he thought i'll have a bit of that. he just thought duel monarchy was probaly the most acceptable solution britain would allow at the time. any way duel monarchy and dev's theory or external association really aint much different.

Griffith went to the gpo on easter monday 1916 with a rifle to volunteer his service. it was refused. he was in the irb. as for his pacifict stance, for himit was just for pratical reasons. he stood by the truce and 1922 constitution because he was a parliamentarian and the people had voted.

Capt'n Midnight · 25-10-2006 7:40pm

ateam wrote:

She stuck her nose in where it wasn't wanted...Irish presidents are supposed to be above politics and represent the country abroad in a positive manner.

If she hadn't won then the presidency would have been watered down to a purely ceremonial role by now. It's a vital part of our democracy, that the office can have some control of the Dail. It's not to be somewhere where politicians can have a cushy semi retirement.

As a comparison to royalty, we don't want a tourist attraction what we need is a role that can be used as for instance - Juan Carlos and the 1981 coup in Spain .

Garret was a statesman, we have so few of these even if you take the loosest definition of someone who looks beyond the next election. But overall not on the greatest short list, would have been a good president.

hard to tell if should include potential or compare what was done compared to what could have been done if circumstances had been different, "a rising tide lifts all boats" and I'm sick of hearing of how politicians surfing claim to have created the wave.

/puts thinking cap on for a while

walrusgumble · 19-11-2006 12:16am

mary robinson was and is a fine politican/public figure.

she was in the thick of a majority of social changes that occurred during the 1970's-1980's eg gay rights, family planning & contraceptives, divorce (i think).

the last chap is dead on. people seem to ignore the president's role in artile 26 of the constitution. one thing is for sure as far as democracy is concerned we should be lucky as not many countries allow bills or laws to be challenged at either stage of the process.

she did well using article 26. just look at the other presidents, (fine men as they were) but sure it nearlly was always guaranteed that a bill would go through, on account of the fianna fail link. look what happened when cearbhall o daeligh (sorry mispelt) resigned.

incidently why were many people so against her over the years? surely it was not cause she was a woman?

Ireland's greatest politian

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